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Show Off => Level Design => WIP Levels => Topic started by: Joris Ceoen on March 04, 2014, 04:48:40 PM

Title: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on March 04, 2014, 04:48:40 PM
Hello everyone,

So here I am again with a WIP of yet another cathedral... I did not abandon the previous version though I paused it for a CS:GO version that will be a completely new realisation of a cathedral that will push the gothic style even further.

Because it's going to be created for CS:GO I can mess around more with polygons and do just a little bit more compared to CS:S (I just need to keep away from using too many alpha textured models suggested by Robert Briscoe). That's not all, because this time around I will be using Wall Worm Model Tools' Anvil elements and CorVex completely, in other words I'm intentionally making this project to learn working with these amazing tools, and so far I have only been extremely positive and the experience and effectiveness of the tools are incredible so far, when I have used like probably not even half the program so far.

Not only is it amazing because you circumvent every external step that was earlier necessary, but everything is right on the boat, if something is wrong or missing, I'll just create it right into my level and when it's done it'll be there and on the end I'll just have to hit export a few time to get everything into a .bsp and get the map running.

Not to mention, if you remember that doing something wrong in Hammer is often the absolute end of your vmf, this is not the case in 3DS Max, so you have much more freedom in experimenting without you having to worry about corrupted files.

Anyways, enough of that, for those who used it or are using it they know what I mean. Here are some very early WIP screenshots of how it currently looks like, although those models in the pictures are the very final product of how some of the base elements of the cathedral will look like:

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-03-0420-52-04-00_zps7dd84a29.jpg&hash=84b1fed49d74f08895c639836b89c91096ef5d46)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-03-0420-52-12-05_zpsb8ea38fc.jpg&hash=dda8ced8a797c17847fa39babbe4ffb13857f086)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-03-0420-52-32-97_zps699485f2.jpg&hash=9e081f2f93a2116a104a482c8b693c86586b65ff)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-03-0420-52-47-29_zps2456d4a0.jpg&hash=0a6a2aecc97568b445c6ac4c8ce7bb0b8ae55d77)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-03-0420-53-05-26_zps37893c1f.jpg&hash=1918fc502f23aa8f28fbc85cef435bff77065b43)

The last picture is showing the collisions for those who would be interested. Collisions are now even easier in 3DS Max. I mean, I used to make all of them in Sketchup because earlier in Sketchup I found it easier to do measurements, now this is completely useless with the introduction of CorVex.

If someone has remarks or commentary, I'd love to hear about them!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on March 04, 2014, 05:12:49 PM
Very nice! This is just the kind of thing I've been hoping the WW crowd would start doing more... sharing some WIPs and discussion.

Now some people will start seeing CorVex in action!

I hope we will see you use the 3D skybox functions in WW as well as Skywriter (2d sky).  ;)
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on March 11, 2014, 06:33:03 PM
Because I had to leave a little earlier I could not set up all of the new models for the new WIP screenshots, instead I'll quickly share a viewport overview of how the level currently looks like in 3DS Max:

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fwwmt_cathedral_maxview_zps125f51cf.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=654d67e6da35bc0f0bfb455e1e1ee601f8f16072)

Sorry for the large size but resizing removes all detail. So that's how it currently looks like, I have hidden all WWMT helpers along with the collisionhulls. This is one side of the cathedral which will soon be copy-pasted to the other side to decide how large/small the midline of the crossplan will be (it shouldn't be too large). Then, I will proceed with what will be the most intensive part of the cathedral and that's the top of the cross which unfortunatly is a very complex task. Fortunatly in 3DS Max this will be easier now compared to Sketchup in the past (Yes... Sketchup...).

Tomorrow in-game screenshots!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on March 11, 2014, 11:24:00 PM
Excellent. I am enjoying seeing your progress! I may have to designate you an official ambassador! Keep it up!

At some point you will have to share a step-by-step for new users transitioning from Hammer to Max.  ;)
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on March 12, 2014, 05:56:50 AM
Quote from: wallworm on March 11, 2014, 11:24:00 PM
Excellent. I am enjoying seeing your progress! I may have to designate you an official ambassador! Keep it up!

At some point you will have to share a step-by-step for new users transitioning from Hammer to Max.  ;)

I definitly will! My virtual studio for doing reviews/tutorials/other is almost done so when I have all of the resources I will start working on a video explaining all of the reasons why I switched to 3DS Max, along with a step-by-step tutorial on the forums :)

Btw, this reminds of the long forgotten tutorial about low-polygon models that you once asked me on my earlier cathedral WIP, that's definitly something I also got to do yet (although it's not related to WWMT in specific). It will interest mappers in doing modelling after all and as such could also be a motivation to switch as well. I'll keep you in touch on this!

EDIT: Small note but the window texture in the above picture is not the final one, I just quickly grabbed an old material that I already had in CS:S and used it here.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on April 08, 2014, 09:31:43 AM
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-04-0815-23-10-21_zps17988153.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=a5f3656e0188f61ba961bc8e2d88eed67353df6b)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-04-0815-23-16-44_zpsc69fda05.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=7be881dfe7da2d025dc9081fa23a5179c45fe545)

Sorry for the big images but it's the only way to look at them in detail. So 2 of the 5 chapels of the crown from the cathedral are more or less done. I'm horrified of the lighting and the errornous shadow maps from the cascade maps that are yet unfixed in CS:GO, so I'll have to play with some settings later on for better shadows/lighting/normals.

I have already talked with Shawn about how I could project window lighting rays onto the surface provided I would know the final direction and lighting settings of the map and that would be Render-To-Texture. I will do this near the very end of my map so I don't waste time on eye-candy as that's currently the last I have to worry about.

When the full chapels are there, I'll post new pictures, after which I will proceed to the proxy system and start working on the other part of the cathedral (which shouldn't take much time anymore thanks to the proxies and having all assets being available by then). Then, I will proceed to the upper half of the cathedral which will be the big windows.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on April 08, 2014, 11:55:34 PM
Looking good Joris. Getting rid of the weird shadows is of course important, but I'm enjoying seeing the progress on this. Keep it up!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on April 13, 2014, 12:43:28 PM
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2FWWMT_CathedralWIP02_zps746d32f1.png%7Eoriginal&hash=4f276ed2861da9f779368315fe12a9fc6c797f80)

I finally managed to mirror the right side and my first wing (at the bottom) is done. I have to proceed with the upper part and ceilings first, because I want to make the central ceiling square, so that each wing-corridor it connects (which logically are 4) is equally large and makes things much easier for modelling and then the proportions look correct. I'm deciding this based on the cathedral on which I'm referencing the models/geometry so it's the way it should be.

Once this very first wing is fully complete, I'll show a render and in-game representation of how it'll look like inside (only architecturally).

On a side note, just disabling shadows on all of the windows fixed considerably the lighting as the gap still casts light and will then bounce it off to the environment of each little chapel (so exactly like the way I want it: Light passing through and bouncing off light). However the shadows remains of course but that's not the biggest problem. I could see this and confirm it because when you go far away enough (400 inches) the cascade maps get removed, and you can clearly see the lightspot of the window. So all I'm left to do at the end is adding a kind of model that represent the reflection of the lightspot and window colors. Or, as Shawn suggested, Render-To-Texture.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on April 13, 2014, 08:59:28 PM
Keep it up Joris. It's coming along well!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on April 16, 2014, 06:57:51 PM
Not fully finished yet, but I though it looked like a abandoned cathedral-like ruin, so I decided to share anyways:

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-04-1700-54-53-65_zpse5dda9f9.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=65a13a276acd91b473fefb2af4f6e7001452b39f)

Achieved after a long road of WWMT versions with the aid of Anvil, proxies and the amazing skin system assigned to it!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on April 20, 2014, 10:13:06 AM
I meant to reply earlier but as I talked to you, forgot to reply here. It's really coming along Joris. I am excited to see this project evolve and look forward to some discussions on some techniques you employed and tactics you learned for using Max instead of Hammer.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on April 23, 2014, 05:44:26 PM
Don't worry! I'm already writing down most of the things I'm taking advantage of in 3DS Max over hammer. The list keeps growing every day ;)
Here is something new:

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fwip06_zps9fd614a8.png%7Eoriginal&hash=7042c97a26d3d4a48136005af7b50defa5beaa9a)

Small but shows the inside from the bottom. This is the big line inside, I will be adding extra cathedral-related items later on, and also finding an original way of making the whole area not a single-room but instead cut it up in different parts.

On the left you can see how I'm starting to go to the outside. I have deliberatly added 2 walls at the entrance on the front of the cathedral between the openings for cutting out the inside completely from the outside. This will be done with areaportals and skip/hint (the latter may be sufficient but having both could be necessary as sometimes hint/skip only does not tend to work properly on slight curves/corners, I truly do hope it does!).

I have decided by now how to divide the upper part from the cathedral (which is the roof) by looking a bit at de_mirage. At the bombsite with the big tower (can't remember the letter but it's not the market) you can clearly see from a mapper's point of view how Valve decided to merge both structures together as if they were one, yet there's a clean cut in the middle of the 2. The upper tower is 3D Skybox and as such will be visible anywhere, and as such makes it look as if the entire building is constantly present in the level. Yet, thanks to having cut those 2 bodies from each other, everything underneath the tower will be culled/hidden without having to sacrifice an otherwise ugly looking solution where either the whole thing would be removed (tower included) or instead having to place a ridicilously high skybox ceiling which would hinder the performance beyond useful.

This is what I want to achieve as well. The cathedral will be the highest building across the map, but I can't allow the cathedral to be rendered entirely at any point in the map or no one would be running my map (no matter if it is single player or multiplayer). So, I assume that the towers and the roof will be visible, whereas everything beneath it will not be rendered behind buildings or when being at either side of the cathedral. That makes a great solution for optimizing a structure that requires a lot of detail (gothic architecture) while still giving the PC a cool time running the map.

Of course, this would be impossible in Hammer. In 3DS Max with WWMT you can literally cut an object in 2, have the texture coördinates match up and still have both parts in the 3D Skybox and playlevel at the precise location, without texture coördinate inaccuracies! I can't wait to see this in action but I won't be waiting for too long by now ever since I can now start working on the towers, pillars, supports, windows, roof etc...

When I get to actually show something about this I will be posting new screens!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on May 22, 2014, 11:08:19 AM
A few new pictures:

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d352e6ec0d.jpg&hash=9d3076c7a9d1df206da0b062ccfc8f0bd6f1c3a6)
The inside (still has the shadow problems but they are largely solved by now)

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d34a0cd59c.jpg&hash=640b972ba5b9d6b5c91eced9959035edfcec50a7)
Currently how it looks like in 3DS Max. It's cool that I actually could render the whole map from any given point which is also something you can't do in Hammer.

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d355527681.jpg&hash=639ea30e368b8369aed6484edbb4126a68334921)
From above

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d352c3b7bd.jpg&hash=32870c9415b857afe41378e1fc355afe9b7b9b0d)
The left front tower. The right one is there too by now.

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d352f48774.jpg&hash=ed4c22eab992451c2aa166c63e0986f63c391656)
From the back. Notice how some models are having their origin in the inside of the cathedral. I still have to fix this by setting the illumination origin outside of the cathedral.

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d352d02850.jpg&hash=09ddb942c9be99e6e977b45028552ae0aef9f3b9)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.gamebanana.com%2Fimg%2Fss%2Fprojects%2F537d352d98efa.jpg&hash=8453aba124f16398054f1ddb0a6350dd3b34494f)
With and without 3d skybox, showing how precise you can work with the 3D Skybox tools!

There is more to come but since I only have 18 days left, I really need to focus right now!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on May 22, 2014, 01:02:22 PM
Excellent job Joris! Keep it up.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: func_Mathias on May 24, 2014, 06:09:52 PM
Wow that's a pretty darn good job! Too bad the lighting doesn't keep up :-/
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on May 24, 2014, 07:50:53 PM
Quote from: func_Mathias on May 24, 2014, 06:09:52 PM
Wow that's a pretty darn good job! Too bad the lighting doesn't keep up :-/
Thanks for your kind comment!

I have fixed most of these shadow problems by now. The problem was mainly the window frames just before the glass that casted shadows which where too complicated for the engines to cast on nearby static props (such as the ceilings). By disabling the shadows it looks much better. I'm also going to add lights especially on the lower level of the cathedral which should instantly deal with shadow problems (as the shadows will be corrected by the light rays).
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on May 31, 2014, 03:30:24 PM
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-05-3121-21-41-15_zpsbb1e6ca1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=3070ac64f34776ab6088faa0129cbc268e8b8b00)
New picture of the finished outside, at this side of which most of the playground will take place.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on June 01, 2014, 02:06:43 PM
More screenshots from the 3D Skybox as it is finished:

(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-06-0119-56-19-63_zpsd2ed260b.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=08bf4fac68206b96d9377cea6b049fdad0e6d29a)
(https://www.wallworm.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb585%2FJorisCeoen%2Fcsgo2014-06-0119-56-27-24_zps72ccf112.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=4301982052999773deea801f41d08f291e362463)

I can safely say that this was only achieveable with 3DS Max and Wall Worm Model Tools. The way I was able to match the 3D Skybox and Hammer in the most delicate and 'fragile' situations is blatantly mindblowing and I would never be able to optimize the map by nature in Hammer. I mean, I haven't yet applied a single optimization process (as the environments are in the works) and the map runs at a steady 280fps in and outside.

My initial idea of seperating the the cathedral in 2 (a clean cut to seperate left, right, front and back from each other when walking through the map) and still conserving the total picture as if you can see the whole cathedral from everywhere has become a reality whereas previously it was just a dream! And, even more, now when walking around the cathedral, it nicely culls away all inside geometry from the outside as well as the opposite side geometry (as I predicted). This means that even though the map currently consists of around 1.2 million polygons in total, at most only 300k get rendered at the same time excluding all of the incoming geometry as well.

That is to say, it runs at maximum speed for me so I have lots of extra reserve to add fancy stuff!

Now, I only have 8 days left, so 8 days are now going to be spend on finishing the map, making it playable and get it running for the CEVO contest. That means that new screens will only be added probably AFTER finishing the whole thing.

That being said, once the map is entered and polished, I will be starting all of the tutorials for WMMT that I wish to share with everyone, via Youtube and articles.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on June 01, 2014, 02:18:03 PM
Looks awesome Joris.

Two things:

1) There is still some misalignment of the roof tiles (as seen in the first image).

2) I am curious: is the polygon count in Max or Hammer? I'm guessing that if these are Max stats, they are incorrect because the scene calculations will include anything in scene (like hulls, entity nodes, etc)... and also, if you are referring to Max's Polygon count, it doesn't match the in-game stat of Tri-count. I'm just curious.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on June 01, 2014, 02:21:40 PM
Quote from: wallworm on June 01, 2014, 02:18:03 PM
Looks awesome Joris.

Two things:

1) There is still some misalignment of the roof tiles (as seen in the first image).

2) I am curious: is the polygon count in Max or Hammer? I'm guessing that if these are Max stats, they are incorrect because the scene calculations will include anything in scene (like hulls, entity nodes, etc)... and also, if you are referring to Max's Polygon count, it doesn't match the in-game stat of Tri-count. I'm just curious.
I said polygons again... I ment triangles. Selecting everything gives a triangle count of around 1.3 mill. It includes all of those things indeed so it's incorrect, but should be close to the real number I think.

Yea, the roof tiles are correct in 3DS Max, but on export are getting lost. I have no idea why this happens, and I already applied an Reset Xform modifier to it.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on June 01, 2014, 02:24:23 PM
Send me a max file with just those objects and I will look at them (I'm assuming it's world geometry?). If a model, they probably need to be rexported. (You can select one piece and then hit File > Save Selected for a new scene. Then open that scene and Archive it.) I'll see why the UVs aren't exporting correctly.
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on June 01, 2014, 02:25:53 PM
Quote from: wallworm on June 01, 2014, 02:24:23 PM
Send me a max file with just those objects and I will look at them (I'm assuming it's world geometry?). If a model, they probably need to be rexported. (You can select one piece and then hit File > Save Selected for a new scene. Then open that scene and Archive it.) I'll see why the UVs aren't exporting correctly.
It's world geometry (Those are the func_details in the skybox.). I'll send it to you!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: Joris Ceoen on June 25, 2014, 07:39:07 AM
Currently I am working hard on Aperture Tag (http://store.steampowered.com/app/280740/) and as such I have no time until the end of this week to catch up on the cathedral. However for future purposes, and because I currently don't feel like playing anything or even mapping, I will enlight on the future plans of the cathedral:

1) Making a new layout

One of the biggest complaints that the current version of the map received was that the layout was just not good and didn't make sense. 2 bomsites being outside the cathedral while it would be more obvious to bomb the cathedral itself. There were also big gaps at crucial door openings that were so large that a smoke couldn't even cover both sides of those openings. Mid is the quickest meeting point but yet takes so long to reach. The bombsites themselves are far away from both teams and rotation times were simply impossible. This made me realise that I'll have to change the speed of the general distances by moving one of the bombsites inside the cathedral (placed at the center where CT's spawn.). This will put both bombsites closer to each other and make rotation times a very possible solution.

For me it seemed logical to scrap the fountain bombsite, it had no meaning at all and was making the map too large to handle. So now the path left from the cathedral that initially led to the fountain bombsite will be used to flank from the left to get faster to the inside bombsite! I will also make sure that the opening leading to that bombsite will come earlier because otherwise it's the same problem for being a very long traject just to reach inside the cathedral. This will also get me rid of the unnecessary routes I have been putting there.


2) Changing the general scale

I find it hard but not detrimental that the map has this big scale, making you feel like a 'rat' (being in a rats map). The only way to change this is to make the players feel that they are appropriately walking in an environment that with the eye makes you feel comfortable, so that the only thing that is huge, is the cathedral. I generated this feeling in players because of the texture scale and the giant stairs in the cathedral which have to be jumped in order to pass. Honestly said, that is because it's really hard when you're mapping in 3DS Max to judge the scale from players. I had in fact measured the player model in Hammer to put and reference them in 3DS Max, but the view seems really different. It looks like you're mapping something that is actually on scale for players, but once inside the map it looks huge!

This is especially the case for textures. The bricks on the floor could easily fit 2-3 CT's and the bricks on the walls cover almost 2 CT's! Not to mention that many textures had different scales which I didn't have the time to fix before the deadline. This is something to get used to, and for future maps I'm pretty sure the same problem won't happen again now that I know what to do. To get rid of the huge feeling of the cathedral, I will be putting objects in such a way that they convey an interesting layout inside the cathedral, give a sense of direction, a reason to be bombed and generally give you the feeling that all the space in the cathedral is not just there to be (as now it's pretty much empty).


3) Testing!!!!

I have been stepping into the same error for about 5 times now. ALL of my maps went through one-way idea passages and were actually never tested (Himeji was but only after this one-way process). I will stop starting like that. After changing the texture scales and having the new layout done, I will throw it on a server and ask many people to test. I know plenty of communities with servers that will happily put my testversions on them and test for feedback. After gathering all feedback, I will adapt, compile and test again. Again again again until I get a layout that works, that is generally accepted by almost everyone and that plays well. I'm not afraid to 'lose' that time anymore as I realise it just takes that much time and effort to come at such a stage.

4) Adding custom soundscapes

With WWMT I can now realistically option for custom soundscapes. I will be taking a lot of time to learn making the right sounds and give you a feeling as if you're really being in a cathedral-like environment. I will also be playing an organ piece on request of Shawn which is an amazing idea!


5) Optimizing, finshing up errors, adding cubemaps & optimised .nav file

The final step will be all of the above, which doesn't need explanation I think as everyone knows what it means, but I still want to enlight on optimization:
This was one of the more positive comments on the map. I'm happy people realised that the map is actually very well optimized, despite the high polycount it suggest at the unfinished/unoptimized stage it currently lives. That is because of 3D Skybox which I could only have realised with WWMT. One side of the cathedral can never get rendered, and as such completely cull all of those objects. Yet, from every POV you'll never be able actually see this process happening because the map is literally cut in 2 (horizontally) and as such makes an interesting, natural optimization. With natural I mean without having a single manual optimization. I could compile the map, not optimize, and it would still run at almost 300fps at any spot (I think the lowest I had, with 3DS Max and Hammer open at the same time, 250).

It doesn't mean I will do that, because I definitly spot some areas in the map that could have been easily optimized and weren't yet. A few hint/skip and areaportals will quickly get rid of those.


That's the big plan for this map. In the meantime, I'm about to start writing down my own experiences/discoveries on WWMT and see to publish them on mapping communities and keeping them up-to-date with the explanations. Much like FMPone did with de_crown which had quite a lot of succes and generated much interest!
Title: Re: de_cathedral (CS:GO)
Post by: wallworm on June 25, 2014, 09:29:16 AM
Great info Joris.

When I first started mapping in Max, I too felt a little bit awkward about scale. But this was probably just a familiarity issue as well as FOV. (But if I recall, the first steps I took into Hammer also had scale problems... and it took some experimenting to get the right feel.) Luckily there are controls in Max to adjust the FOV for the perspective views.