Author Topic: SMD Import Discussion  (Read 5033 times)

LocknLock
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: -2
  • Acolyte
    • View Profile
SMD Import Discussion
« on: March 27, 2016, 10:26:02 pm »
@wallworm/Shawn...You should check out blender and it's importer..

https://www.blender.org/download/

http://steamreview.org/BlenderSourceTools/

You'll find that like literally none of these .smd import issues with WallWorm exist with it..review the plugins features on that page.

"One click Import/Export"
This is so incredible, I honestly didn't know how incredible it was until I moved to 3ds Max because...it's not one click import/export with Wall Worm..I got this complicated menu in my face and I have to make sacrifices like no bones, non-animated character, mesh issues otherwise I'm waiting forever. It took like 15 minutes to import a single character magne..scratch that, the character was cut into pieces, it took that long to import it's torso.

That's another thing when you import from Blender's, it takes like 5-10 seconds or less to import it. No sacrifices, no options. If it's included in the .smd, it's imported. Simple as that.

C'mon dude, you say you're a Jack of Trades, possibly a professional if you're making a plugin for a 1.5k dollar per year program but you're being beat by a group of amateurs on a model format that's ancient...I think like 1999 ancient or older. Please try your best. ;)

wallworm

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3675
  • Karma: 101
  • Behind me?
    • View Profile
Re: SMD Import Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2016, 08:33:17 am »
You'll find that like literally none of these .smd import issues with WallWorm exist with it..review the plugins features on that page.
Simple... go use Blender instead.

That's another thing when you import from Blender's, it takes like 5-10 seconds or less to import it. No sacrifices, no options. If it's included in the .smd, it's imported. Simple as that.

The WW SMD importer is MAXScript. MAXScript is notoriously slow with the Skin modifier. Not much I can do about that simple fact. MAXScript may be slower than a C++ plugin, but at least I don't have to recompile a new version when each Max comes out.

C'mon dude, you say you're a Jack of Trades, possibly a professional if you're making a plugin for a 1.5k dollar per year program but you're being beat by a group of amateurs on a model format that's ancient...I think like 1999 ancient or older. Please try your best. ;)

I don't even know how to respond to that. I'm not in a competition.

I could take the time to go write it in C++ like the older SMD importers... but why would I take my time to do this when I'm not interested in importing SMD files? I am only interested in creating original content in Max. For everyone who wants to re-use other people's work, Blender is your best solution with animated props because this simply isn't something I'm going to spend too much of my time on. The SMD importer inside WW was originally developed by a fellow on Facepunch who donated the code to me. If it wasn't for his donation, WW wouldn't even have an importer because it's, again, not an interest or need of mine.

The internet is full of people who feel entitled to the time and efforts of developers, artists, musicians, etc. It just blows my mind. I have never decided to walk into a neighbor's home uninvited and demand, "Make me a sandwich." Much less get a free lunch and then insult the cook as I left.

LocknLock
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: -2
  • Acolyte
    • View Profile
Re: SMD Import Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2016, 11:17:28 am »
Well, that's disappointing to read. Anyway, don't bother with rewriting it in C++ if you're talking about what past plugin writers for Max did. I tried theirs as well, still imported faster and with everything (Simple) but their plugin's aim wasn't very good as faces would be dropped. So clearly it wasn't perfect and it's development has apparently stopped as this is the only smd importer/exporter for this version of Max. Besides, as you say, you're not at all interested nor motivated to.

I can see you're not much of a modder either judging by your response. I figure most people who know of .smd would know it's not *just* for animated props..like...every game Valve ever made has characters which not only the model but it's animation is in .smd format. It's like...a go to format for video games. I was even surprised to see .smd files in other games by other studios. A surprisingly better format even than .fbx because .fbx sucks.

Also, back on the modding subject, it's not just for editing a model, the model can be replaced entirely. You must not be much of a gamer either as this is proven on modding sites and on Steam's workshop itself. Like 99% of TF2's new content is made by the community, Valve even pays the modelers.

"The SMD importer inside WW was originally developed by a fellow on Facepunch who donated the code to me. If it wasn't for his donation, WW wouldn't even have an importer because it's, again, not an interest or need of mine."

This bit..explains a lot. A bit hypocritical..even if it was "donated" or whatever, it's a sign of respect to credit the creator even if they don't ask for it and it explains a lot because *that* creator cared enough to actually make it in the first place. You're re-using someone else's work btw, please link me to them if it's not too much of hassle.

"The internet is full of people who feel entitled to the time and efforts of developers, artists, musicians, etc. It just blows my mind. I have never decided to walk into a neighbor's home uninvited and demand, "Make me a sandwich." Much less get a free lunch and then insult the cook as I left."

Well, I wasn't 'demanding' you to make it better. I gave you critique, which you entirely took the wrong way. That's not a good look, not being able to take feedback. If I was downright disrespectful, I would've just said "Your plugin sucks ass and so do you!" but I didn't, I told you why it wasn't very good. I also tried to show you proof of the fact that it's not impossible as such a plugin exists proving it...just not for Max.

But in general, you should just remove support for Valve formats so no one expects you to "waste" your time improving on it seeing as how you have no interest in it to begin with. I don't understand why you included it in the first place. I have no other reason to stay here though, I had hope for WW to get better but w/e. Without the Valve import/export options, it kinda looks like it just does the same things Max already does but it's just a shortcut menu.

wallworm

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3675
  • Karma: 101
  • Behind me?
    • View Profile
Re: SMD Import Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2016, 12:13:25 pm »
My long support for the Source community speaks for itself. Supporting Source is the entire purpose of Wall Worm. But it was entirely built as an exporter pipeline. And I make no apologies for that.

Credits for Wall Worm and related tools are right here.

By and large the tools for importing were added piecemeal over time as more and more modders approached me. Despite these efforts (which have almost always come with my own time and effort with little appreciation) there is very often an expectation of more.

The SMD importer in WW works just fine (if slower) than the compiled versions. I've imported plenty at this point during tests or for work. The animations are perfect... which is completely not the point of this thread--it's about dead vertices and welded vertices. So anyone who just wants to import a model and add/edit an animation... it works fine. The only real issue is that vertices are not welded by default... which will not have any bearing on re-exporting because the exported file will still be un-indexed vertices on unique faces. So it's again a non-issue.

Generally, the whole issue is when you want to take a skinned mesh and edit the actual geometry. Because of how the skin modifier works, edits to the geometry are going to require you to reskin the model... so if that's what you are going to do... just add a Vertex Weld Modifier and then go on. It's a simple thing. But the people who generally are upset about the unwelded vertices don't seem to get this simple truth and simple solution.

In terms of your post. I take critiques in stride all the time. Criticisms have always been very helpful in making all of my work better. I may have misread the intent of your post. But I deal with so many emails and messages on this topic that it has generated a very impatient mood in me regarding this subject.

Joris Ceoen

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Karma: 27
  • WallWorm Ambassador
    • View Profile
Re: SMD Import Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2016, 05:01:34 pm »
@wallworm/Shawn...You should check out blender and it's importer..

https://www.blender.org/download/

http://steamreview.org/BlenderSourceTools/

You'll find that like literally none of these .smd import issues with WallWorm exist with it..review the plugins features on that page.

"One click Import/Export"
This is so incredible, I honestly didn't know how incredible it was until I moved to 3ds Max because...it's not one click import/export with Wall Worm..I got this complicated menu in my face and I have to make sacrifices like no bones, non-animated character, mesh issues otherwise I'm waiting forever. It took like 15 minutes to import a single character magne..scratch that, the character was cut into pieces, it took that long to import it's torso.

That's another thing when you import from Blender's, it takes like 5-10 seconds or less to import it. No sacrifices, no options. If it's included in the .smd, it's imported. Simple as that.

C'mon dude, you say you're a Jack of Trades, possibly a professional if you're making a plugin for a 1.5k dollar per year program but you're being beat by a group of amateurs on a model format that's ancient...I think like 1999 ancient or older. Please try your best. ;)
I'm not entirely sure why you went out your way to register an account, simply to kind of bash on Shawn. It's true that there are better importers out there, people have known this for yeaaars. You haven't taken the time to scourge the thousands of threads on this forum that already talk about the same problem and each and every time Shawn goes out there to explain the 'issues' with the importers.

It's been crystal clear that there aren't any good SMD importers for 3DS Max anymore, simply because the original creator of the 3DS Max 2012 SMD importer never bothered to create a new compatible one with the more recent version of Max. As Shawn says, those are written in C++ and require a new build each and every time.

However, it baffles me as well that you come in here and expect a magical solution to this problem with a tone and behaviour that requires no merits. For latest versions, Max is the only way to go, and can't be perfect in every situation. But, as you said, that's what Blender is for. Why would anyone take the hassle to use 3DS Max when you have Blender, which is free, and has these so-called amazing one-click importers.

If you really want a pitch-perfect solution for SMD import from Wall Worm for 3DS Max (because obviously, if you felt the need to complain here, it kind of confirms that you were looking for such a thing), then like all normal people who demand things, pay. Pay him a reasonable fee so you can demand him to design it. Creating these plugins is difficult, requires a considerable knowledge of programming and Source itself, and time. Things you clearly don't value (maybe you are used to getting things right away, ey?).

wallworm

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3675
  • Karma: 101
  • Behind me?
    • View Profile
Re: SMD Import Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2016, 05:23:26 pm »
I have split these posts from the original thread to keep the original on topic.

I am apologizing for the tone I brought to the discussion earlier. And I want to make sure that we all veer towards mutual respect. The last thing I want to do is foster any animosity or to create a culture on the forum of negativity.

The fact is that I know that the import tools are important to many people. Sometimes I may get grumpy about the pressure to develop those tools. My interests are creating new assets and levels...  so you can see why it can become a burden at times.